A fishy! ![]()
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Imperial Forum → Posts by The Great Eye
*expresses disagreement with whatever Baratheon's post was* ![]()
Kryptonite
Newfoundland
... Maybe I should actually close threads when I say they're closed!
...
Are you for real?
How did I even get signed up?
I feel like xeno has somehow decided my side for me. ![]()
....
Are you for real?
Perhaps. If so, I've obtained a decent record here so far for overreacting to sarcasm. ![]()
It is worth exactly what you think it is worth. The idea is you 'deposit' it in the bank and withdraw what you think you want. The bank compares this transaction to all other transactions and determines if you traded even, less or more and associates a credit or debit with your account as required.
Also there is no such thing as objective value, so your question asking how much is it is worth is pointless (and also blatant trolling or not reading before posting).
1: Define "objective value."
2: Compare it with the analysis in your first paragraph, and tell me what the difference between the two is.
Re: "more" and "less" and "fiduciary responsibility". It seems that, like The Yell, you are attributing a $ amount to what is essentially unquantifiable value, thinking in terms of a monetary paradigm which is simply not compatible with reality. You seem to think that 'value' can be quantified, when, in fact it can't. This is the flaw inherent in the monetary system. Value is unquantifiable. The route of our troubles with the monetary system is that it attempts to quantify what is essentially unquantifiable, and it is the route of the recent failure of the global financial system. Value is subjective, personal, a matter of taste, preference, or purpose or utility, a attribution which is different for every person.
I was going to reply, but then I read this...
This brings us back to how the automated system which conducts transactions on behalf of the client: this would NOT put 'the computer' in a fiduciary position, for there would be no objective 'MORE' which the system would be responsible to acquire on behalf of the client. Rather, the system would simply be arranging the most efficient use of deposited items, which would also happen to garner for the depositor the most possible 'interest' on deposited items, and do so according to the user's stated SUBJECTIVE, PERSONAL taste, preference, or stated purpose or utility. In other words, the system would not be in a fiduciary position because people wouldn't be expecting MORE or BETTER in the objective sense of these terms, but, rather, simply DIFFERENT or BETTER FOR THEM in the SUBJECTIVE sense.
... and realized You_Fool is right about the "xeno is simply saying 'magic box make everything work.'" You're not answering my scenario, and not even trying to... so I give up.
"So if I was "owed" apples, but I didn't cash out before the baker got there, I would either
a) Wait for another mass deposit
b) settle for more expensive, less portable apple pies
c) say "screw this" and bail on the system."
Why would you have deposited apples if you had wanted to withdraw apples?
You offer interest! Depositing 100 apples now to withdraw 102 apples later isn't bad!
"If a real estate agent handled all deals by setting up a computer program which read online house listings and threw out offers, the real estate agent would still be the person deciding to use the program, deciding the parameters of weighing valuations for aspects of properties, etc. You don't get to avoid fiduciary duties to clients just because you surrender the very power which you're given."
But, that's just it, Zarf, it isn't a real estate agent who is handling the deals with the automated program. It isn't any fiduciary agent deciding to use the automated program or the parameters. It is the client / customer directly deciding to do so. It is the same as a person using an online banking system with its research tools to conduct THEIR OWN online trades.
That's just absolutely not in step with your own story.
"The first thing he notices is that his old car, a 2021 Acura, is ACTUALLY gone, currently being used by someone else. He sees that he got an estimated 1.8% above the base value for it. Not a bad return for less than 24 hours. Due to privacy regulations, Adam doesn't see who got it nor the exact items and the locations of these items that were exchanged for it. What he does have access to are the types of items that were exchanged for it. Most people don't bother going through and unpacking what items were exchanged for items that they deposit. Adam, though, does. He is, after all, an accountant."
That is about as far from how you describe the business transaction recently as you can possibly get. Not only is Adam not doing his own business transaction... he didn't know about the transaction until after the fact.
This isn't the same as online business tools. Once a site crosses into actually offering recommendations, it gets dangerously close to having a fiduciary duty. Outright taking control over a client's resources... and yes, there is absolutely a fiduciary duty. Collecting a percentage of the party's profits for that transaction? Yes, you're going to have an incredibly hard time convincing someone that "no person" removes your obligations on behalf of a client.
But a fiduciary duty doesn't even require one party have control over another's property. Most attorneys will never have outright control over a client's funds. Real estate agents will only have control upon completion of a deal (possibly in the form of transferring resources to escrow). In your case, the goods are literally handed over to be negotiated and traded by an algorithm. That is so far and beyond what is normally protected under fiduciary obligations that a party would expect that sort of duty to exist.
Additionally, your "real estate agents" exist in the fact that people construct and maintain the algorithm. Unless you get the algorithm perfect the first time you set up the market (a situation which, if you claim would be the case, I would sign up with You_Fool and call this a reliance on magic), people would be needed to adjust the algorithm over time.
Finally... go back to my last post: my argument wasn't all legal. Even absent a legal duty, the problem I highlighted (which, by the way, represents nearly all completed business transactions) shows that, fundamentally, your system would not be attempting to achieve what's best for each of its individual clients, and thus those clients would likely ditch you.
@ Zarf, there is no need for fiduciary agents in barter system described above as well as in the scenario prior, as each person is deciding for themselves what they are willing to trade, or, in the automated system, allowing a computer to decide based on analysis of complex sets of data and derived probabilities that no human would be capable for doing anyway, and this would not be a fiduciary position.
Oh, I'm definitely not talking about the fiduciary duty issue in the context of the scenario where people are deciding for themselves the offers they will make. At that point, you're pretty much a giant Craigslist, so w/e.
However, the automated system would absolutely still be a fiduciary duty. You don't get a right to neglect the duty to a client just because you've automated the process of negotiation. If a real estate agent handled all deals by setting up a computer program which read online house listings and threw out offers, the real estate agent would still be the person deciding to use the program, deciding the parameters of weighing valuations for aspects of properties, etc. You don't get to avoid fiduciary duties to clients just because you surrender the very power which you're given.
But even dropping the legal issue, there's the practical issue I mentioned. Very simple scenario:
George wants to sell a house. He's looking for items of value equal to $200,000. (I'm using currency here just because it's easier than saying "1 million pop tarts")
John is willing to buy that house. He's willing to pay total items worth $400,000 for that house.
A deal will inevitably go through. No doubt. However, the sole question is where the price will be set between $200,000 and $400,000. Either person could hire a real estate agent who would negotiate to get what's best for them (In George's case, selling that home for $400,000. In John's case, buying the home for $200,000). Or they could roll the dice and go with your abstract algorithm. No matter what deal is set up in the system, to at least one (if not both) parties, the deal would have been worse than what was very feasible. Quite frankly, that algorithm is just a bad representative for the interests of both parties, and they would most likely look to hire real negotiators.
Most of Flint's "good" list is from so far back in time that "Republican" either didn't exist or didn't mean what it does today by a long shot. Out of the two from recent history, one is a Democrat.
The "bad" list, however, does happened to be all Democrats (well, except for the one Whig). ![]()
Oh, also, don't forget that this system is violating core principles of fiduciary duty to clients.
Real estate agents, attorneys, and other individuals representing people in business transactions generally have legal duties to prevent conflict of interests. In particular, they generally cannot represent two individuals who are in an inherently adversarial transaction.
For example, if I'm selling a high-class house for $1 million on behalf of a seller I represent, and a buyer I also represent looks at the house and tells me he'd be willing to buy it for as much as $2 million... what do I do? Do I get the transaction done at $1.5 million and split the benefit between them both? Prefer my buyer and get the $1 million offer? Or go to the seller and suggest he re-list his property for $2 million and enjoy the nice extra benefit? The problem is that, due to my fiduciary duty, both the buyer and seller were expecting me to do what is in their best interests. However, I'm in a situation where it's impossible for me to do anything without violating the best interest of one party or the other due to the negotiating wiggle room.
In this case, people are giving XenoCorp the authority to take their property and engage in transactions with other customers of XenoCorp, going so far as to take the individual out of the price negotiation. The problem is that XenoCorp represents both the buyers and sellers in the deal, and will have vested interests on behalf of both parties. As a result, XenoCorp would either:
A: Not give each person it represents the best deal they can possibly get, in which case they're a shoddy representative, and/or:
B: Outright screw over one party
It doesn't matter if it's an optional thing for clients. The fact that you offer the opportunity to engage in the conflict of interests is inherently bad because they're supposed to trust you, and you're placing yourself in a situation where you aren't to be trusted as their representative.
And before you ask, the thing which differentiates XenoCorp from the business you linked to in terms of fiduciary duty is that XenoCorp is proactively negotiating price on behalf of the original owner. The company you linked to, in contrast, is basically acting like Craigslist.
Is it just me, or has this idea morphed between the 1st post and the most recent?
Btw, +1 TPs for xeno and Yell for actually having an interesting debate here. ![]()
Who runs this bank, Raul Castro?
http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/17/world/ame … orean-ship
One unit of "repair 50-year old anti-air defenses" for one shipload of sugar.
Holy crap, The Yell figured it out! XenoCorp exists! ![]()
"Reverse Bear Trap"
Added to my things-I-wish-I-hadn't-googled list.
Best post so far! ![]()
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