potentially most devastating.....
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potentially most devastating.....
its not bad attitudes.. its a damn shame when a top fam can lose to a bottom fam simply because he can attack more times then we can cause the game allows lower nw fams make more attacks then larger fams in their own damn core.. that's a sad day what IC has become and reduced too..
Yes they can do more attacks, but there's no reason you shouldn't have the defense to slow them down. With your greater resources and experience, each one of your attacks should be successful...while their attacks, if you take care of your defenses, will only be able to target undefended planets.
take note now new rounds are everyone hang back low nw and all.. then expo 20 planets into top fam and around and they wont have enough morale to take them all even with 9-10 people attacking.. and then we will abuse the morale issue and make big fams pay little fams cause the game is now designed for the semi active players and losers...
Fill
Your
Core
after this round I'm done hopefully a lot of u vets feel the same way and we can boycott IC shit's dumb... if they want the losers and semi active players as the voice of IC so be it.. let it be known the game is dying not because of the players its because of the same mods and they stubborn ways and what its 5 of u guys and half of u don't play.. true nick u plays but whoelse plays.. nobody so we have to get a view for the entire game thru ur eyes.. nobody elses.. what u and only u find issues in will be a problem.. not like any of mods do anything to contribute to the game.. put active people on as mods.. not people who can give 2 craps about the game and old relics who keep mod because of their history..
When you get tips on how to best use a system from one of the developers of the system, and continue to ignore them that's on you.
Nukes are one of the hardest ops to cast, so fails should be expected.
Undeath,
Just want to give you some appriciation for all you have been doing lately.. i know that you're getting alot of crap from everyone and still manage to come back every single day.
Keep it up buddy. without ou the game would be long gone already
Thanks! Means a lot to see some people appreciate how much time we put into this at no real benefit to ourselves ![]()
I think that's a fact.. point is mods don't play the game so they know little to nothing about how it is to put time into a game to where they give the advantage to the lower active players.. and try to justify it to active players that their trying to make the game fair.. when in fact the game run fine for 10-15 years prior to that.. u telling me now its unfair? and make a round with no wars.. u cant have a war.. their is no competition.. and I've always told mods about breaking up the activity.. but no it would be too difficult.. well hell this is difficult for u guys and how I see it and yet uve managed to screw this up beyond belief.. this has to be the most unbelievable round where a top fam has to pay a lower fam a NAP because the lower fam can attack more then the top fam.. not because their better just because they can attack more times then top fam..
I play every round, and actively look for ways to work with the new system. Typically I break down my findings and try to spell out new potential strategies (see above) since everybody else wants to go back to the same morale system that they forget they hated....It's like my wife thinking she wants to be pregnant again because she forgets how terrible it was
. Not my fault at all if people don't take advantage ![]()
Also Foohon, the mods didn't say they didn't care about the old players. I personally said I care more about new players than veteran players with bad attitudes ![]()
I was gonna write something about this the same time you did, but I didn't cause I was still negotiating nap with a smaller fam...
Couldn't believe we are actually paying fam's half our size and nw for a nap simply cause have no other choise.This being said I do believe the intend of this rule is ok, we do not want large fams to farm the smaller ones, but also, since it's the actual game, you cannot punish fams for being active and organized. Personally I have never been in a fam that wasn't top 3 for at least a big part of the round just cause I always try to get everybody active and organized. Been so since the first day I played 15 years ago. I had to train noobs just to get them to understand what they were doing, get everybody in a chat and so on and so on.
With these new rules I much more prefere to be in a smaller fam cause I'd at least be able to hit someone and have some fun. Large fams have no other option then to nap everybody and then the game is only about who has the biggest infra, while it should be about who has most planets at the end of the round.
Anyway, I suggest we leave the morale rules as they are, yeah really I mean it. Just one little thing...
If a smaller fam decides to attack a larger fam, or starts doing ops/spells the rules should automatically go back to the old rules for a certain period, like 48 hours...One thing is for sure, I am not playing another round the way it is played right now, not with these rules!
That way the smaller are still protected, but if they hit first or hit back they must suffer the consequences.
We've discussed a means of setting up a mechanic like this, but there are a lot of issues (I have a running list of them on my home desktop that I'll post later
)
Chiefly:
1. there would likely be no way to get the mechanic to only target the aggressor, meaning if family A attacks family B, family B get's reduced morale...but as soon as family B attacks family A, family A also gets reduced morale. (this was originally discussed to replace the war option) With the possible tweaking of a minimum morale loss on attacks, this could work out.
2. When starting a war, why would you ever attack first?
well in large fams defense.. u mean to tell me now ur penaltizing ur active fams who build faster then others.. that's lame.. u give more power to the people who have not spent as much time in as others to be able to have a advantage over them.. they can expo 20 all over ur core and because people whine about farming the big fam has to take a risk of letting them portal in core cause it core 40%-60% a attack. in this stupid stuff u call core systems what benefit does it give to do this and render the war option useless it makes no sense.. its like here advantages to being inactive or not good in this game.. nobody trying to farm well atleast not 67.. but yet a fam that's 4 ranks below us can expo all over us cause us to attack them constantly and raid new expos cause they feel like it and it cost us 30-40% a attack and u call that fair? hell no that's another way of abuse... and in these so call core systems u guys given us.. that's dumb u.. u guys make changes to the game and don't consider all the variables then say its a testing round or we cant make all the changes at once.. how about do make changes until they are all worked out and through of in every aspent..
This is a rambling mess...but i'll give it a go.
Penalizing the super active families evens the playing field for the rest of the galaxy. The fact that you have to worry about the mid ranked families just gives us more competition. The high activity of a few players isn't the norm, thus if we don't give some advantage to players that can't dedicate 12 hours a day, we'd have no competition.
The war option isn't compatible with the new morale system in it's current state. Core systems were added because top families were complaining about small attackers coring their bankers, if you explore properly now their advantage in morale is halved inside your core now. The fact that some top families didn't take advantage of this system, and and are at risk of coring because of it, is a flaw of the strategy, not the system.
current round example (using the average of 20 planets per system):
1967
1152 total planets (as of now)
26 core systems
45% planets protected by cores
1966
1133 total planets (as of now)
15 core systems
26% planets protected by cores
1972
735 total planets (as of now)
23 core systems
62% planets protected by core
If you fill your core, you're not at risk of people exploring all over you. Saving 100% of resource bonus planets for resourcers while bankers explore elsewhere, leaving holes in your core, is now a calculated decision to not take advantage of having more systems that cost twice the morale to attack.
A similar calculated risk is pop banking.
As of this tick, I'm the #3 income banker. My income/(nw/planets) ratio isn't nearly as good this round as it was last round, because since we're in a small family I'm ridiculously defense heavy....but even with that added nw compared to top banker, I'm 60% of his income while being 42% of his nw (If I had normal defense & to/rc ratio I'd be about 85% of his income, but with this current system starting RC heavy to boost research and then deleting them later in the round to replace with to's is the most efficient route). That extra 1.7mil nw + the nw that comes with the farms needed to feed him is a significant drain on your morale. (we're discussing ways to make pop banking viable)
Another way to save or spend morale is how you use your ops! If you're in a family that's twice the size of a family you're attacking, do you:
A. old standard:
PI (5 morale)
IP (5 morale)
cpff or sab (aggressive op, equal to attack)
Clear planet (attacking morale)
or
B.
Maintain infil (5 morale, good multiple weeks)
Use estimation to judge amount of fleet necessary to clear the planet (0 morale)
Clear planet (attacking morale)
So instead of small families getting farmed relentlessly and desperately trying to make deals with large families, they're able to poke larger families? So large, organized, active families are able to be challenged by small, possibly organized, families with a few active players?
And why from an administrative standpoint would we want to change that back to the old way where 66 & 67 would have the ability to hold the other 6 families in the galaxy hostage for 80% of the round until they decided they wanted a challenge and fought each other at eor?
Shared portals have been discussed as well, but I think it was decided it wasn't possible.
On another note, this would make monitoring illegal multi accounts next to impossible.
On a second other note, PNAPS between top families aren't forced. If they're killing the game it's players actively doing it. If the players know they're actively killing the game, but continue doing it... well we get in trouble when we insert changes that try to steer players away from the lazy way out ![]()
I'm not sure if the game would be able to register this. (I'm picturing the attack page trying to calculate how to separately account for multiple defenders) Maybe we could set it up so that it acted like 2 separate attacks...or maybe added a line for "family fleet fight" after the lasers get hit.
Hrm...
Not anymore they're not X(
1. One Round On / One Round Off: Have one round with this system, then one with the old, and so on.
Not an option (script limitations)
2. Two Rounds: Running at same time, one old, one new.
Not an option (script limitations)
3. Smaller Families: I say 5 man families all the way guys, I mean it would create like 5 or 6 new families and with a more target rich environment the morale wont matter as much. That by increasing the number of families you increase the number of targets, rather than just 2 top families their might be 4, rather than 3 mid level families their might be 6, there is always going to be someone to hit and would make it a lot harder to NAP half the galaxy.
Few problems here:
1. Less people per family increases the odds that you'll be the only active person in your family.
Example: 1972 this round only had 3 active people for the first month or so, but since we had 3 people working together Scorp, Bud, and myself have been able to set up a decent area for ourselves while setting up some decent econ. If only 1/3 people in a 5 man family are active, you might...might have 2 players. There's nothing wrong with playing the game solo, but you're at a severe disadvantage in Starburst...and if you manage to do well you'll be a farmer target since you don't have backup. The increased size of families is, in part, to decrease the odds of individuals having rounds that are busted from the start.
2. I've been trying different player spreads for years. Unfortunately it won't really effect the target issue. Most player in top families would rather get peace with everyone that can compete with them, and then spend the round seeing who can scrape more planets from the smaller families.
3. We don't tend to have a consistent # of players. Sometimes we have to add spots if we have an influx, and the only way we have to do this is to add 1 spot to all families.
-Note: not opposed to trying smaller families again, experience just tells me 7-10 players works best with our current base.
4. One NAP Rounds: Just bugger off NAPS just allow 1 NAP per round then really no one should complain they have no targets. Does not stop you messing the leader and arranging a mutual "cease fire" but always leaves the option of war as well. That may however cause to many people to "Turtle" rather than jump for spread, still can't complain about lack of targets.
I get this idea, and I'm not opposed to it...but at the same time nobody is forcing people to nap the whole galaxy as it is. I'm still of the opinion that NAPS shouldn't be a game feature at all ![]()
5. You Attack Me I Attack You: I think this out of everything is my favourite option because to me it makes sense. Okay if I was a "Big Nation" then sure if I attack a really small nation for no reason then my people will get upset, it will cost me huge morale, fair enough I get that. IF HOWEVER that small nation attacks me first, then game on beeeeeach.
That yeah okay Mr small attacker if you don't attack me I can hardly touch you, however if you do attack me then my morale cost to hit you back do lower dramatically. I mean what was wrong with that? Hey my people didn't want war, they didn't want to attack you, but hey you attacked us first now my people are painting smiley faces on missiles
A system like this has been in discussion since we started talking about redoing the morale system, but at the moment it can't be implemented.
Also, there was worry that too many people would just...not attack anyone. Which to me is fine, defensive play is a perfectly valid option, but players complain that there's not enough conflict as it is.
6. Faster Morale Gain: Maybe a system where you get a faster morale gain depending on the number of planets you have, that would mean it will still cost a big player a ton of morale to attack smaller ones but you could attack a few more times. Like as it stands a small enough attacker can attack you 100 times and you can do 1 retake a day, 2 if your lucky. If you got a slightly higher morale regain for been bigger maybe you could at least do say 10 or 15 retakes at least, even it out a little.
Don't believe this is an option. All the changes we've made so far have been to existing functions, as that's what our devs have time to do. Trying to link an individual's planet count to morale gain would take time than we have at our disposal.
7. Morale Op: To complicated (I Know) but I have always loved the idea of a healer like operations in IC, things that you can cast specifically on family members only. Boost speed / increase armour / shield fleet / but sure one of them at least could me boost morale so that bankers sat around with little to do could at least ramp their attackers morale gain.
Another idea that's been tossed around (something similar was suggested as a special op for Rev), don't believe anyone's gotten to the point that they could justify a balance for this. How hard would it be to cast? How much morale would be boosted? How would the morale be boosted? How much would this benefit top families over bottom families? etc.
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Think my conclusion overall is that if people did want to turn IC around then it would take far far more than just changes in morale, that the game needs advertising better, better training available, videos teaching people how to play IC.
But personally I'd just opt to redo the entire game.
Whilst some people would say this style of game is dead, its all xboxs and high graphic games now I still believe there is a solid future for tick based strategy games, that if redone on a more modern level it could again grow.
For many years people have said what they want from IC and most of the time those voices "Now Gone" have cried for new units / new ops / new buildings / new tech options / better chat / varied galaxies / new races.
Perhaps another idea would be to have "Faction Wars"
That if the mods could place the starting worlds of families then that would be kind of great. I would assume they simply picked where a home world would be but not actually know which family would get allocated that slot.
In which case you put 4 families on one side and 4 on the other side and have 4 v 4 with no morale or seriously reduced, rather than having to pick targets its simply "them 4 families over there need to die" think it would be fun to try that.
Why not have some kind of team galaxy like that as well.
In SN it matters how you play
In SB it matters how your family play
In ?? said faction galaxy it matters how the families your faction playNo you wouldn't need have a random family as player numbers in the 8 or 10 families could be increased / decreased to fit player numbers. 5 a side sounds good to me, you should get 2 decent fams, 2 moderate fams, and 1 smeg fam on each side.
If I could change one thing however it probably would be smaller family sizes, I'd rather play alongside 4 or 5 other players and have 15 families to fight than play with 9 players and have 8 families
We have very little control over home systems (we hit a button that randomly spawns a map, and keep hitting that button until as many families have even starting positions as possible. If we're lucky it happens the first time, but I know I've spent an hour respawning galaxies waiting for something fair.)
If families only had 5 or 6 people in them, and you had 4 or 5 people that you got to actively play alongside, you'd be nearly guaranteed a top finish:p
I fully agree with you about advertising, but advertising requires a budget...which IC doesn't have. The mods are completely unpaid (I've been mod/fmod on and off for almost 6 years, and I don't think I even have a VIP account at the moment), the only income IC sees is VIP accounts (I don't think that even covers the price of the server, by my understanding we've been running on Stefan's charity for a while now), and he (the owner) isn't really interested in putting the time and money into setting it up as a mobile game or making any serious changes.
We work off some pretty serious limitations...the changes we made were the changes we could get pushed through. We don't have a team of developers that each put in 10-40 hours a week...we have 1 or 2 guys that give a bit of spare time when we need something done.
Sincerely,
Incredibly frustrated Mod
Your core system for starters.
Your own mods can't even explain the new changes in a 100% accurate way.
What needs to be explained? The only thing we haven't done is spell the formula out for people.
Alright, I'll just adapt by leaving the game. I'll adapt by not playing this crap game you've made it become. It was bad before, now it's worse. Congrats UD, your hard works paid off.
Honestly, if that's your attitude I'm not sad to see you go.
Unfortunately from a logistics standpoint, catering to the old players is a short term solution...while clearing out poor attitudes to make a better environment for new players is a long term solution.
Oh...right....sd
Increasing the weight that nw has on morale will increase overall morale loss, thus not helping your problem (in SN it's already roughly 70%nw, 30%size, and since multiple players have admitted to intentionally avoiding people their size it's entirely possible that we'll install an added penalty for attacking people significantly smaller).
We will not be removing size from the formula completely because this:
"At 1000+ planets you will have so much NW in planets that keeping a very low NW would make you very vulnarable to attacks from players with equal nw."
Is not true. You could very easily have less than 1mil nw with 1000 planets if your only goal was planet sniping, since you'd just need enough mfs to support 100 trannies and 1000 ground. (cfs would be pointless, as it makes more sense in this scenario to let your troops disband and to sell iron as you need cash or other resources in order to not waste money on upkeep). You were #25 in nw in SN in round 18, at ~3.25million. Removing size from the calculation, it would require you 50+ morale for each attack on this player, and you were tiny nw wise.
Fun for me is gaining planets. I don't really care if the opponent is ranked 1st or 40th.
I don't understand why this thread exists ![]()
You guys think you're having a hard time?
Try playing SS as a Camaar
HC rev attack is more fun!
Also, regardless of what we do with the morale formula, as long as size is the winning factor people will always look to attack low nw high planet count players. Most players are lazy and value winning over challenge.
Undeath wrote:
What I'm seeing is that you prioritize winning in size in a galaxy intended to give new players a place to learn over having fun, which is totally fine...but we're not going to change the system in SN to favor bigger players.Fun for me is gaining planets. I don't really care if the opponent is ranked 1st or 40th. The current morale formula skews my choice towards low nw, high size players. If you intended the galaxy for new players it should favour attacking high nw players above size. To make that happen attacking high nw players needs to cost less morale. For now the game is just boring.
"The current morale formula skews my choice towards low nw, high size players."
This isn't true....NW is weighted significantly heavier than size. If you attack someone equal to you in planet count and nw, vs attacking someone equal to you in planet count but half your nw, you'd lose less than 1/3 the morale per attack.
Also congratulations! It's been ages since I've seen anything on this, and I don't remember specifics, but I know you've been working on this for a while.
Imperial Forum → Posts by Undeath
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